Add option to select MPC Audio Renderer please

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Add option to select MPC Audio Renderer please Empty Add option to select MPC Audio Renderer please

Post by ale5000 Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:24 am

Please add option to select MPC Audio Renderer in the installer.
And maybe rename Internal Audio Renderer to SaneAR Audio Renderer like it is done in MPC-HC interface.

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Post by Admin Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:33 pm

It needs some more testing first.

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Post by keeperofbalance.nos Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:17 pm

Is there will be a way to use bit-exact output, but without exclusive mode with muting in future Wasapi builds? I just want Wasapi with bit-exact output and system channel mixer at the same time, because Wasapi mixer volume for center and surround is around 70% compared to systems 100% and it's hard to hear dialogue in some movies because of that. I hope you will keep SaneAR, because new internal is kinda buggy for me.

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Post by Admin Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:13 pm

The whole bit-exact discussion is just nonsense. Even in exclusive mode there is no guarantee there isn't any need for resampling or mixing or any other processing else that makes it non bit-exact. It is not like any human can hear difference in rounding errors in a 32-bit float value.

You should let LAV Audio Decoder do the mixing. Then you can configure the mix levels.

Does the mix issue only occur with non-exclusive mode?
What do you mean with muting? I hope you know exclusive means one application can get exclusive access to the audio output.
What bugs do you have besides the mixing issue?

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Post by keeperofbalance.nos Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:13 pm

Sorry. My bad. I was asking about bit-exact for better performance sake, not quality.
Mixing problem occurs only if you disable any type of mixing or channel layout change in lav audio and:
1) Use wasapi exclusive in both old SaneAR and new Internal that will lead to: Left & Right 100%, Center & Surround 70%.
2) Use wasapi shared in both old SaneAR with ignore system channel mixer and new Internal that will lead to same upper result.
About new Internal wasapi bugs that old SaneAR doesn't have:
When it was released it had no sound if source input and wasapi output sample rate or channels didn't match. With last update it was fixed, but now it has clipping or noise problems while SaneAR doesn't. I downloaded Toto - Africa from here: https://www.ee.columbia.edu/~dpwe/sounds/music/ for easy testing and you can hear one of them at 1:10 where it sings Boy in both sharing and exclusive mode (where it plays louder for some reason). It gets fixed if you enable expand mono to stereo in lav audio that SaneAR doesn't need for same result.
My point is that without lav audio interference, Wasapi does a poor job at mixing by itself.
Who does better job at resampling or mixing for better performance: Lav Audio decoder, Wasapi or system (Driver)? What is best performance option for 2 core cpu user and which buffering is better to use 100 or Default?

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Post by Admin Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:57 pm

For mixing I suggest using LAV. I have no idea what performs better, the differences are probably so small that they are irrelevant.
Buffer 50. But that value probably won't make any difference at all on most systems.

I am not hearing any difference with that file between mono and stereo output. So quality issue may be driver fault. If I open the Windows volume indicator during playback, then sound doesn't get very close to 100%, so no obvious overflow or clipping visible. My Windows Sound is set to stereo.

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Post by Admin Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:11 pm

Are you using 5.1 output? Can you test if the mono issue is gone when Windows is set to stereo?

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Post by Admin Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:28 pm

Btw, Center & Surround at 70% the the standard way of mixing. So technically it is actually correct.

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Post by keeperofbalance.nos Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:11 pm

I have it on stereo. Try around 1:40, its more noticeable. It happens only with new wasapi Internal, old SaneAR or Default DirectSound is clean. Also new Internal has slide delay at launching or switching between files, while SaneAR and DirectSound are instant, but that's not a big deal. Only solution that i find while i was messing with speaker settings is by enabling "Disable all sound effects" in Enhancements settings, but that forced 70% center and surronud audio with the only SaneAR wasapi settings that was giving me 100% before and considerably decreased overall audio of surround content with Default DirectSound to around 40%. Now i have a Headache Smile

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Post by Admin Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:36 pm

Were any of the enhancements enabled?

It looks like a driver bug. I am not having any issues.

Just enable mixing in LAV and avoid the problems.

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Post by Admin Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:43 pm

The output format on the "Advanced" tab in the audio device properties might also have an effect.

Just tried with exclusive mode, and there I do notice a loudness difference between mono and stereo. Mono is louder with MPCAR.

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Post by keeperofbalance.nos Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:27 am

No i don't have any enhancements enabled. That option just force disables all enhancements that i am not using anyway, strange. I tried different output formats but clipping is still there. I am stupid, because exclusive ignores or disables those enhancements anyway, but i still hear clipping, so even disabling those enhancements with exclusive gives me clipping. I was blaming my headphones but then i just went all in and tested that track with 100% volume instead of 40% with exclusive: DirectSound and SaneAR were perfectly clean, while new internal had massive clipping, so it's definitely not my headphones or driver.
Thank for helping anyway.

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Post by Admin Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:06 pm

The quality issue only happens with mono input?

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Post by keeperofbalance.nos Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:25 pm

I did a bunch of testings with stereo and didn't hear any noise problems, don't know about surround yet and mono is complicated. Some have issue, some don't. Tested some 44100 hz mono samples with no problems, unless if it's only below 44100 hz, then it has noise.
Try this final sample that i find more reproducible: teachingtheoutsiders.com/sounds/voice_battlecry.wav
With DirectSound: has sound and is clean
With SaneAR shared and exclusive: has sound and is clean
With MPCAR shared: has no sound at all
With MPCAR exclusive: has sound with noise

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Post by Admin Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:37 pm

I can reproduce silence bug.

I can also reproduce the noise. But it also happens here with DirectSound. SaneAR uses "limiter" processing filter in this case to reduce the volume in case of overflow.

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Post by keeperofbalance.nos Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:16 pm

Strange. I can definitely say that i get same volume level with all three renderers, so SaneAR and DirectSound are at same volume and i don't get noise. I even messed with different driver settings to get noise with DirectSound, even enabled some enhancements separately or all at the same time, yet still i didn't get any noise. Tested surround with MPCAR and it's ok too, so it just happens whith some low quality mono files and maybe you are correct, it's Windows or Driver related.
I think, silence bug is bit depth related.

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Post by Admin Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:20 pm

The silence bug has been fixed.

Expand mono to stereo can be used to avoid the noise bug.

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Post by keeperofbalance.nos Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:30 pm

Yes. When i was testing, i figured out that mixing was involved, but turned out that it was 32-bit Floating-Point as well. SaneAR always outputs Floating-Point in shared mode, while MPCAR outputs same as source, that's why i was getting noise with MPCAR in shared mode.
I tested all bit depths in MPCAR shared by forcing them from Lav audio and only Floating-Point was clean. When i force disabled enhancements in driver, that changed MPCAR bit depth outputting behavior to Floating-Point only, just like SaneAR does, that's why i wasn't getting noise. Also, if you enable mixing in Lav Audio and make sure that mixing is actually happening, than it outputs only Floating-Point as well, even if you have all bit depths checked for bit-exact output.

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Post by Admin Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:58 pm

The noise is a result of overflow in that sample source file, with audio values exceeding going above the range [0-1]. SaneAR has a limiter processing filter that "fixes" that by reducing the overall volume in the audio.

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Post by keeperofbalance.nos Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:56 pm

Sorry, but i highly doubt that filter is causing it and seriously doesn't care anymore, i just wanted to help. I think that new MPCAR is garbage and SaneAR implementation is way better and more correct and i hope that it will stay, but if not, than i will switch to DirectSound. I hated it on MPC-BE and was hopping that MPC-HC Wasapi implementation would be better, but it's same. Sorry if i am being rude and i am sorry that I intervened.

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