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Win Movie Maker - direct editing of MOV files in XP
by Markodec Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:40 pm
According to a YouTube post that links to the klite codec pack
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK2eKHUE0BY
It is claimed that in windows 7, by installing the klite pack; MOV files can be edited directly by WMM.
(many responded with confirmation of the fact)
It was clearly stated that this fix wouldn't work in XP.
However, as (apparently) 70% of the planet still uses XP, I thought it was worth raising the question as to whether this non compatibility could be circumvented?
I have bought a very nice logitech camera C920, that sadly records in MOV.
I began recording footage, and continued, thinking I would edit them when I got to that phase of the project.
IE. Now (when I got the shock).
Clearly, I can run all the videos thru a convertor.
I have tried freemake.com and it seems to work well.
I then downloaded the klite pack.... it found quite a few problems, but all went well.
However, as was predicted in the youtube post, WMM still does not recognise MOV files.
The WMM version is either 5.1 or 2.1.4028.0 (both are listed in 'about')
Can this problem be fixed, or should I simply accept that all my videos will need converting before they can be edited?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK2eKHUE0BY
It is claimed that in windows 7, by installing the klite pack; MOV files can be edited directly by WMM.
(many responded with confirmation of the fact)
It was clearly stated that this fix wouldn't work in XP.
However, as (apparently) 70% of the planet still uses XP, I thought it was worth raising the question as to whether this non compatibility could be circumvented?
I have bought a very nice logitech camera C920, that sadly records in MOV.
I began recording footage, and continued, thinking I would edit them when I got to that phase of the project.
IE. Now (when I got the shock).
Clearly, I can run all the videos thru a convertor.
I have tried freemake.com and it seems to work well.
I then downloaded the klite pack.... it found quite a few problems, but all went well.
However, as was predicted in the youtube post, WMM still does not recognise MOV files.
The WMM version is either 5.1 or 2.1.4028.0 (both are listed in 'about')
Can this problem be fixed, or should I simply accept that all my videos will need converting before they can be edited?
Markodec- Posts : 12
Join date : 2014-01-06
Location : South of France
Re: Win Movie Maker - direct editing of MOV files in XP
by Admin Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:45 pm
XP market share has dropped below 30% 
WMM is a very unreliable program. Officially it only supports a limited number of video formats. The codec pack can help a bit to extend it capabilities, but the results are mixed. Some files may work, some simply don't. There is no magic trick that makes everything work.
A tip to convert to a compatible format, without loss in quality:
1) Get Avidemux
http://avidemux.berlios.de/download.html
2) Convert to AVI file, with Huffyuv video. This is a lossless video format, meaning no loss in quality. For audio use PCM or MP3.
3) The mega pack contains a VFW codec for Huffyuv. That should work with WMM.
I have not tested the above. So let me know if it works, then I can recommend it to others as well, if same question is asked.
WMM is a very unreliable program. Officially it only supports a limited number of video formats. The codec pack can help a bit to extend it capabilities, but the results are mixed. Some files may work, some simply don't. There is no magic trick that makes everything work.
A tip to convert to a compatible format, without loss in quality:
1) Get Avidemux
http://avidemux.berlios.de/download.html
2) Convert to AVI file, with Huffyuv video. This is a lossless video format, meaning no loss in quality. For audio use PCM or MP3.
3) The mega pack contains a VFW codec for Huffyuv. That should work with WMM.
I have not tested the above. So let me know if it works, then I can recommend it to others as well, if same question is asked.
Admin- Admin
- Posts : 7384
Join date : 2011-06-17 -
Re: Win Movie Maker - direct editing of MOV files in XP
by Markodec Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:03 am
The quality of 'video display' in avidemux is so high...... frankly, it's shocking. 
The colours are rich and vibrant.
The freeze frame is pixel perfect.
During camera repositioning - zero pixelation.
This was displaying the 80Mb MOV file compared to the same file in the original logitech s/ware, quicktime, and Win Media Player.
It's like comparing a common or garden HD video on Youtube, to a genuine BBC HD video on Youtube.
Thanks to Admin for that ace tip!
This could be the push I need to swap Kubuntu for Ubuntu (to get a bit of speed back into my laptop).
Output:
Video Output dropbox offered (FF)HuffYUV so I selected it.
Output format was set to AVI Muxer
Clicking save created a 4Gb avi file.
Win Media Player display quality:
Very good - a vast improvement over the 80Mb MOV file.
Colours were not as rich as in the avidemux display window, but if you had never seen avidemux you would consider the display as excellent.
Note: I also ran the 4Gb avi file in avidemux, and it was as good as the original 80Mb MOV file.
Therefore I can say that this test was a resounding success at first attempt (no twiddling or tweaking required).
I also note that avidemux is also an editing package.
It does seem to lack the two window timeline approach as used by WMM and most other editing packages, but I need to spend time investigating this.
It may be that it could even replace WMM.
It would certainly be nice if I could avoid creating 4Gb files for every 180sec of video.
Hmmmm..... maybe I will be forced to buy another drive.
Thanks for the great information and the great codec pack
The colours are rich and vibrant.
The freeze frame is pixel perfect.
During camera repositioning - zero pixelation.
This was displaying the 80Mb MOV file compared to the same file in the original logitech s/ware, quicktime, and Win Media Player.
It's like comparing a common or garden HD video on Youtube, to a genuine BBC HD video on Youtube.
Thanks to Admin for that ace tip!
This could be the push I need to swap Kubuntu for Ubuntu (to get a bit of speed back into my laptop).
Output:
Video Output dropbox offered (FF)HuffYUV so I selected it.
Output format was set to AVI Muxer
Clicking save created a 4Gb avi file.
Win Media Player display quality:
Very good - a vast improvement over the 80Mb MOV file.
Colours were not as rich as in the avidemux display window, but if you had never seen avidemux you would consider the display as excellent.
Note: I also ran the 4Gb avi file in avidemux, and it was as good as the original 80Mb MOV file.
Therefore I can say that this test was a resounding success at first attempt (no twiddling or tweaking required).
I also note that avidemux is also an editing package.
It does seem to lack the two window timeline approach as used by WMM and most other editing packages, but I need to spend time investigating this.
It may be that it could even replace WMM.
It would certainly be nice if I could avoid creating 4Gb files for every 180sec of video.
Hmmmm..... maybe I will be forced to buy another drive.
Thanks for the great information and the great codec pack
Markodec- Posts : 12
Join date : 2014-01-06
Location : South of France
Re: Win Movie Maker - direct editing of MOV files in XP
by Admin Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:08 pm
Yes, files will be huge. That is a major downside. Other than that it is an excellent intermediary format for editing. No quality loss. All video frames are also independent from each other, meaning you can cut at any desired frame. The original format of the video (H.264) uses reference frames, which means that some frames depends on previous frames for decoding. That reduces flexibity with regard to cutting.
You could also try to copy the original video into AVI files. That would keep the files smaller and should also not give any quality loss. Hopefully WMM will be able to open it.
You could also try to copy the original video into AVI files. That would keep the files smaller and should also not give any quality loss. Hopefully WMM will be able to open it.
Admin- Admin
- Posts : 7384
Join date : 2011-06-17 -
Re: Win Movie Maker - direct editing of MOV files in XP
by Markodec Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:28 am
Thank you again.
That was precisely the information that I needed.
I downloaded Avidemux to ubuntu using s/ware centre, discovering that the repository holds earlier versions.
I tried to load the MOV file, but got a H.264 warning.
(I now have a better understanding of what that means.)
When I played the file, it ran at half speed without audio.
I searched s/ware centre for klite codec but nothing was found, except 'ubuntu restricted extras'.
I then tried openshot and kdenlive, but they also ran the MOV file at half speed without audio.
Could I be missing the correct codecs?
Perhaps I should install the restricted extras (why restricted I wonder).
Vis a vis WMM opening the 4Gb AVI file.
It imported it, but at certain points the video stuttered and audio sync was lost.
What a bar stewardess.
I had presumed that the AVI file would certainly play well in WMM cos I figured it was a base standard.
Ha! You were right to express caution "Hopefully WMM will be able to open it."
Could that be a mem prob as I've only 4Gb ram installed - possibly the max no?
So to summarise to date:
Avidemux 2.6.7 for XP appears to work perfectly with both the native MOV file, and its own convert to AVI file.
It does have some editing capability, but lacks the two window timeline feature.
The AVI file does play well in Media Player, but not in Movie Maker.
The MOV file doesn't as yet play correctly in any of the ubuntu 12.04 LTS progs.
To test the 4Gb AVI file in ubuntu meant copying it to a USB stick - a task that took 13 minutes!!
This fact alone indicates that I must find a single O/S solution.
It might also fire a reassessment of whether I really need the ability to cut at any frame.
Copying from the stick took a mere 5 minutes.
Openshot and kdenlive could not play the AVI file at all.
Avidemux played it at about eighth speed with no audio.
Clearly my setup is missing something.
Surely you can't develop a video editor without ensuring AVI compatibility.
I always thought that WMM could work with AVI........ perhaps the Avidemux AVI is non standard?
I just don't know enough.
Yes.... it's a difficult moment in the project.
That was precisely the information that I needed.
I downloaded Avidemux to ubuntu using s/ware centre, discovering that the repository holds earlier versions.
I tried to load the MOV file, but got a H.264 warning.
(I now have a better understanding of what that means.)
When I played the file, it ran at half speed without audio.
I searched s/ware centre for klite codec but nothing was found, except 'ubuntu restricted extras'.
I then tried openshot and kdenlive, but they also ran the MOV file at half speed without audio.
Could I be missing the correct codecs?
Perhaps I should install the restricted extras (why restricted I wonder).
Vis a vis WMM opening the 4Gb AVI file.
It imported it, but at certain points the video stuttered and audio sync was lost.
What a bar stewardess.
I had presumed that the AVI file would certainly play well in WMM cos I figured it was a base standard.
Ha! You were right to express caution "Hopefully WMM will be able to open it."
Could that be a mem prob as I've only 4Gb ram installed - possibly the max no?
So to summarise to date:
Avidemux 2.6.7 for XP appears to work perfectly with both the native MOV file, and its own convert to AVI file.
It does have some editing capability, but lacks the two window timeline feature.
The AVI file does play well in Media Player, but not in Movie Maker.
The MOV file doesn't as yet play correctly in any of the ubuntu 12.04 LTS progs.
To test the 4Gb AVI file in ubuntu meant copying it to a USB stick - a task that took 13 minutes!!
This fact alone indicates that I must find a single O/S solution.
It might also fire a reassessment of whether I really need the ability to cut at any frame.
Copying from the stick took a mere 5 minutes.
Openshot and kdenlive could not play the AVI file at all.
Avidemux played it at about eighth speed with no audio.
Clearly my setup is missing something.
Surely you can't develop a video editor without ensuring AVI compatibility.
I always thought that WMM could work with AVI........ perhaps the Avidemux AVI is non standard?
I just don't know enough.
Yes.... it's a difficult moment in the project.
Markodec- Posts : 12
Join date : 2014-01-06
Location : South of France
Re: Win Movie Maker - direct editing of MOV files in XP
by Markodec Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:45 am
Just an additional note to the previous post.
I downloaded virtual dub.
The AVI file plays, but video quality stinks.
Virtualdub doesn't recognise MOV files.
Maybe I can install some addons to allow this.
I've gotta stay positive.
I downloaded virtual dub.
The AVI file plays, but video quality stinks.
Virtualdub doesn't recognise MOV files.
Maybe I can install some addons to allow this.
I've gotta stay positive.
Markodec- Posts : 12
Join date : 2014-01-06
Location : South of France
Re: Win Movie Maker - direct editing of MOV files in XP
by Markodec Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:09 am
So I turned to Any Video Converter.
I tried it with huffyuv but only audio would play.
x.264 worked for AVI.
It produced the same sized 80Mb file as the original, and it played in both media player and movie maker.
I also tried it with its wmv converter, yet strangely it produced pixelated frames.
There are other AVI codecs ffv1 for example to try, but it does show promise.
The video quality display may not match avidemux, but its output files are recognisable by other packages.
Time to pause, after a minor victory.
I tried it with huffyuv but only audio would play.
x.264 worked for AVI.
It produced the same sized 80Mb file as the original, and it played in both media player and movie maker.
I also tried it with its wmv converter, yet strangely it produced pixelated frames.
There are other AVI codecs ffv1 for example to try, but it does show promise.
The video quality display may not match avidemux, but its output files are recognisable by other packages.
Time to pause, after a minor victory.
Markodec- Posts : 12
Join date : 2014-01-06
Location : South of France
Re: Win Movie Maker - direct editing of MOV files in XP
by Markodec Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:47 pm
MediaInfo has helped a lot.
I went back to Avidemux and saved the MOV file output as an MPEG4 AVC 264. in format AVI Mux.
(This file displayed well in both WMM & WMP.)
I then compared the 'anyvideoconverter' and 'Avidemux' files using MediaInfo:
It showed both progs used the same format and video codec, yet both have chosen different default settings (some being listed alongside in bold), and different audio codecs.
This highlights how 2 AVI format containers can hold completely different video and audio files, and that.... even if the codecs are the same, the actual settings can be completely different (to the extent of using different switches!).
From this, I think it is the Huffman format that WMM cannot interpret.
Therefore......
If I needed to uncompress a video (for further editing in WMM), I would need to choose an alternative format (?)
I don't know what other options are available for that.
But perhaps I should concentrate on getting the most out of the compressor s/ware, by learning to understand the encoding settings, and the outcome of any choices made?
The Question of Uncompressing 80Mb to 4Gb
If I work with the 4Gb file, and then recompress (import to WMM) I lose data once.
If I figure out how to directly convert MOV to WMV(movie maker) and work in WMM then I still only lose data once.
Perhaps I lose data twice in both options, as following editing in WMM, the assembled clips are then output to a chosen format.
In which case, the only advantage would be the ability to cut at individudal frames.
If this logic is correct, then perhaps adjusting the 'ReFrames' to more or less frames could assist with the editing (if ReFrames increases the number of reference frames?)
What do you think?
and
Where might I find a useful explanation of 'setting adjustments'?
Just a note on converting directly to WMV in AnyVideoConverter
I've just tried again, but this time I doubled the bitrate to 8000.
This doubled the file size and display quality improved, but the result was still not as good as the H264 @ 4000 bitrate.
(I tried their two codec options V8 & V9, but I note that MediaInfo logs them both as being V8!)
I presume therefore that their WMV codecs are at fault.
Below are the two MediaInfo logs for the Any Video Converter & Avidemux AVI files:
Any Video Converter
Complete name : C:\Documents and Settings\Ace Administrator\My Documents\Any Video Converter\AVI\Video 90_x264.avi
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
File size : 81.2 MiB
Duration : 2mn 48s
Overall bit rate : 4 054 Kbps
Writing application : Lavf54.6.100
Video
ID : 0
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Baseline@L1.3 (High@L4.2)
Format settings, CABAC : No (Yes)
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames (4 frames)
Codec ID : H264
Duration : 2mn 47s
Bit rate : 4 000 Kbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.077
Stream size : 78.4 MiB (97%)
Writing library : x264 core 119
Encoding settings : cabac=0 / ref=2 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x1:0x111 / me=umh / subme=6 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 /
me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=0 / 8x8dct=0 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 /
decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=0 / weightp=0 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=40 / rc=abr / mbtree=1 / bitrate=4000 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
(Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=40 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=20.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00)
b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 /
Audio
ID : 1
Format : MPEG Audio (PCM)
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 3
Mode : Joint stereo
Codec ID : 55
Codec ID/Hint : MP3
Duration : 2mn 48s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 128 Kbps
Channel count : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 44.1 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 2.56 MiB (3%)
Alignment : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration : 26 ms (0.65 video frame)
Interleave, preload duration : 26 ms
avidemux
Complete name : C:\Documents and Settings\Ace Administrator\My Documents\test_avidemux_mpg4_AVC_264.avi
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
File size : 87.9 MiB
Duration : 2mn 47s
Overall bit rate : 4 398 Kbps
Video
ID : 0
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.2
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : H264
Duration : 2mn 47s
Bit rate : 3 348 Kbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 32.224 fps
Original frame rate : 32.225 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.050
Stream size : 66.9 MiB (76%)
Writing library : x264 core 123 r2189 35cf912
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=40 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=20.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Audio
ID : 1
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Little
Format settings, Sign : Signed
Codec ID : 1
Duration : 2mn 47s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 024 Kbps
Channel count : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 32.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Stream size : 20.4 MiB (23%)
Alignment : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration : 31 ms (1.01 video frame)
I went back to Avidemux and saved the MOV file output as an MPEG4 AVC 264. in format AVI Mux.
(This file displayed well in both WMM & WMP.)
I then compared the 'anyvideoconverter' and 'Avidemux' files using MediaInfo:
It showed both progs used the same format and video codec, yet both have chosen different default settings (some being listed alongside in bold), and different audio codecs.
This highlights how 2 AVI format containers can hold completely different video and audio files, and that.... even if the codecs are the same, the actual settings can be completely different (to the extent of using different switches!).
From this, I think it is the Huffman format that WMM cannot interpret.
Therefore......
If I needed to uncompress a video (for further editing in WMM), I would need to choose an alternative format (?)
I don't know what other options are available for that.
But perhaps I should concentrate on getting the most out of the compressor s/ware, by learning to understand the encoding settings, and the outcome of any choices made?
The Question of Uncompressing 80Mb to 4Gb
If I work with the 4Gb file, and then recompress (import to WMM) I lose data once.
If I figure out how to directly convert MOV to WMV(movie maker) and work in WMM then I still only lose data once.
Perhaps I lose data twice in both options, as following editing in WMM, the assembled clips are then output to a chosen format.
In which case, the only advantage would be the ability to cut at individudal frames.
If this logic is correct, then perhaps adjusting the 'ReFrames' to more or less frames could assist with the editing (if ReFrames increases the number of reference frames?)
What do you think?
and
Where might I find a useful explanation of 'setting adjustments'?
Just a note on converting directly to WMV in AnyVideoConverter
I've just tried again, but this time I doubled the bitrate to 8000.
This doubled the file size and display quality improved, but the result was still not as good as the H264 @ 4000 bitrate.
(I tried their two codec options V8 & V9, but I note that MediaInfo logs them both as being V8!)
I presume therefore that their WMV codecs are at fault.
Below are the two MediaInfo logs for the Any Video Converter & Avidemux AVI files:
Any Video Converter
Complete name : C:\Documents and Settings\Ace Administrator\My Documents\Any Video Converter\AVI\Video 90_x264.avi
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
File size : 81.2 MiB
Duration : 2mn 48s
Overall bit rate : 4 054 Kbps
Writing application : Lavf54.6.100
Video
ID : 0
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Baseline@L1.3 (High@L4.2)
Format settings, CABAC : No (Yes)
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames (4 frames)
Codec ID : H264
Duration : 2mn 47s
Bit rate : 4 000 Kbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.077
Stream size : 78.4 MiB (97%)
Writing library : x264 core 119
Encoding settings : cabac=0 / ref=2 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x1:0x111 / me=umh / subme=6 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 /
me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=0 / 8x8dct=0 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 /
decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=0 / weightp=0 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=40 / rc=abr / mbtree=1 / bitrate=4000 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
(Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=40 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=20.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00)
b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 /
Audio
ID : 1
Format : MPEG Audio (PCM)
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 3
Mode : Joint stereo
Codec ID : 55
Codec ID/Hint : MP3
Duration : 2mn 48s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 128 Kbps
Channel count : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 44.1 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 2.56 MiB (3%)
Alignment : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration : 26 ms (0.65 video frame)
Interleave, preload duration : 26 ms
avidemux
Complete name : C:\Documents and Settings\Ace Administrator\My Documents\test_avidemux_mpg4_AVC_264.avi
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
File size : 87.9 MiB
Duration : 2mn 47s
Overall bit rate : 4 398 Kbps
Video
ID : 0
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.2
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : H264
Duration : 2mn 47s
Bit rate : 3 348 Kbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 32.224 fps
Original frame rate : 32.225 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.050
Stream size : 66.9 MiB (76%)
Writing library : x264 core 123 r2189 35cf912
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=40 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=20.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Audio
ID : 1
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Little
Format settings, Sign : Signed
Codec ID : 1
Duration : 2mn 47s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 024 Kbps
Channel count : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 32.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Stream size : 20.4 MiB (23%)
Alignment : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration : 31 ms (1.01 video frame)
Markodec- Posts : 12
Join date : 2014-01-06
Location : South of France
Re: Win Movie Maker - direct editing of MOV files in XP
by Admin Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:21 pm
If you import WMV in WMM, then I think it will still re-encode when outputting.
You can configure the encoding parameters for x264 in AviDemux. Easy way to improve quality is to lower the CRF value.
You can configure the encoding parameters for x264 in AviDemux. Easy way to improve quality is to lower the CRF value.
Admin- Admin
- Posts : 7384
Join date : 2011-06-17 -
Re: Win Movie Maker - direct editing of MOV files in XP
by Markodec Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:21 pm
I think you're right.
....and your 'mod' suggestion led me deeper into the bowels of Avidemux.... and I came up smelling of roses.
One of the key elements for good output
Certain parts of a video require very high bitrates.
Typically I've found these to be involving rapid movement, and image areas of minimal pixel colour difference (certainly with black to grey).
In all the progs I've tried..... where bitrate could be set to (say) 4000; an acceptable output was achieved ie. the file would display well.
Bizarrely it seemed.... most progs defaulted to low bitrates.... High Quality @ say 1400 - embarrassingly insufficient for parts of my vids.
Yet... for the majority of the vid, this would be fine.
Therefore, in order to produce an ideal 'very high quality' final file for display, an initial analysis of bitrate per frame requirement is needed - known as the two pass system.
Avidemux provides this level of control (and so much more).
I ran it to directly convert MOV (80Mb codec: QT) to AVI using codec H264
I set average bitrate to 2000 two pass, and upped sub-pixel refinement to max 10, using hadamard exhaustive (cos it sounded the best).
The result:
A 40Mb file that appears identical to the original 80Mb file.
I noted that FPS was constantly changing, as was the bitrate.
FPS went down to 10 frames per second
bitrates were in the low hundreds and into the thousands.
Can you improve the original?
I guess with software analysis of colour and contrast (like is normal with still image software) presumably the visual appearance could be improved.
But can you uncompress a MOV file and re-compress it to a higher quality AVI file?
It doesn't seem likely but.....
Can you maintain quality while reducing file size?
Maybe.... if the original had a high constant bit rate?
The MediaInfo logs are below, but....
Things I don't understand MOV file:
IE. if bitrate is constant, nominal and actual bitrate would be the same no?
Some progs judge this MOV file at 30 FPS.
[b]Compare this to AVI[/b]
Is this just two different ways to get the same outcome?
High bitrate, low FPS
or
Low bitrate, high FPS
???
But its clear - Avidemux offers the greatest coding control of all the progs I've tried.
Yet it is possible that you might only wish to re-code...... after editing.
So surely the ideal future for Avidemux would be to merge with a good editing package.
Decompress for editing, then re-compress for display.
As it stands, the user MUST edit his video.
So he finds an editor that can import MOV files (say).
He imports 2..... stitches them together, and then exports the new video to a usable format.
The editing package he is using will not have the encoding options of Avidemux..... but he has no other options.
Where would Avidemux come in?
I guess... if he was forced to encode at a constant bitrate of say 4000, he could re-encode with Avidemux to reduce file storage requirements by half, and reduce the stream size from 60Mb down to 20Mb.
Hmmmmmm.
This would likely mean that more viewers would be able to view the videos at HD.
Am I right about this?
Imagine if you could get that result in one shot 'with the editing included'.
So which editor did I find that works?
VSDC seems to be the clear winner.
It offers 'slider' editing of clips a la WMM, multiple file import, and multiple options for export (2 pass, bitrate etc etc.)
I tried Lightworks....... considered to be the ultimate video editor as used by major film makers.
Available now in Linux and Win formats, it is being re-marketed to the plebs.... only that it is fundamentally designed for film work, and workarounds are required for typical video.
Eg. before even importing a file, it must be re-coded to a static fps rate eg. 25fps OR 30fps.
The potential thereafter is only limited by how many hours you put into the learning cycle.
Its big failure is in output coding.
I couldn't get a single one to play in Media Player.
A typical 100Mb MOV file outputs to around 27Gb
I did get one output to 1Gb, but it wouldn't play either.
Apparently they understand the problem and intend to offer more coding options.
If you try it DO NOT think you can wing it based upon your experience.
You must read the quick start guide (which doesn't tell you that you must first recode using a prog they've written called Eyeframe converter).
Tried Ci media cloud beta by Sony 'glitch city arizona'.
Any Video Editor looks like it shares code with VSDC only it offers a quarter of the features and a watermark.
I think I've gone almost as far as I should at the moment
I now need to figure out how to host my videos
With all the display devices out there in circulation, it seems a pro org is required, to provide device dependent delivery.
Here are the MediaInfo logs for the 2 files discussed above:
Video 90.mov
Complete name : C:\Documents and Settings\Ace Administrator\My Documents\My Videos\Logitech Webcam\Edits\Video 90.mov
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : QuickTime
Codec ID : qt
File size : 80.9 MiB
Duration : 2mn 48s
Overall bit rate mode : Constant
Overall bit rate : 4 040 Kbps
Writing application : Lavf52.64.2
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Baseline@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : No
Format settings, ReFrames : 1 frame
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 2mn 47s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 3 022 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 6 000 Kbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 15.107 fps
Standard : Component
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.096
Stream size : 60.4 MiB (75%)
Language : English
Audio
ID : 2
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Little
Format settings, Sign : Signed
Codec ID : sowt
Duration : 2mn 48s
Source duration : 2mn 48s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 024 Kbps
Channel count : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 32.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Stream size : 20.5 MiB (25%)
Source stream size : 20.5 MiB (25%)
Language : English
mdhd_Duration : 168030
2passAvg2000hadamard10.avi
Complete name : C:\Documents and Settings\Ace Administrator\My Documents\2passAvg2000hadamard10.avi
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
File size : 40.1 MiB
Duration : 2mn 47s
Overall bit rate : 2 005 Kbps
Video
ID : 0
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.2
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : H264
Duration : 2mn 47s
Bit rate : 955 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 2 000 Kbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 32.224 fps
Original frame rate : 32.225 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.014
Stream size : 19.1 MiB (48%)
Writing library : x264 core 123 r2189 35cf912
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=tesa / subme=9 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=40 / rc=2pass / mbtree=1 / bitrate=2000 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Audio
ID : 1
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Little
Format settings, Sign : Signed
Codec ID : 1
Duration : 2mn 47s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 024 Kbps
Channel count : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 32.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Stream size : 20.4 MiB (51%)
Alignment : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration : 31 ms (1.01 video frame)
....and your 'mod' suggestion led me deeper into the bowels of Avidemux.... and I came up smelling of roses.
One of the key elements for good output
Certain parts of a video require very high bitrates.
Typically I've found these to be involving rapid movement, and image areas of minimal pixel colour difference (certainly with black to grey).
In all the progs I've tried..... where bitrate could be set to (say) 4000; an acceptable output was achieved ie. the file would display well.
Bizarrely it seemed.... most progs defaulted to low bitrates.... High Quality @ say 1400 - embarrassingly insufficient for parts of my vids.
Yet... for the majority of the vid, this would be fine.
Therefore, in order to produce an ideal 'very high quality' final file for display, an initial analysis of bitrate per frame requirement is needed - known as the two pass system.
Avidemux provides this level of control (and so much more).
I ran it to directly convert MOV (80Mb codec: QT) to AVI using codec H264
I set average bitrate to 2000 two pass, and upped sub-pixel refinement to max 10, using hadamard exhaustive (cos it sounded the best).
The result:
A 40Mb file that appears identical to the original 80Mb file.
I noted that FPS was constantly changing, as was the bitrate.
FPS went down to 10 frames per second
bitrates were in the low hundreds and into the thousands.
Can you improve the original?
I guess with software analysis of colour and contrast (like is normal with still image software) presumably the visual appearance could be improved.
But can you uncompress a MOV file and re-compress it to a higher quality AVI file?
It doesn't seem likely but.....
Can you maintain quality while reducing file size?
Maybe.... if the original had a high constant bit rate?
The MediaInfo logs are below, but....
Things I don't understand MOV file:
- Code:
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 3 022 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 6 000 Kbps
IE. if bitrate is constant, nominal and actual bitrate would be the same no?
- Code:
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 15.107 fps
Some progs judge this MOV file at 30 FPS.
[b]Compare this to AVI[/b]
- Code:
Bit rate : 955 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 2 000 Kbps
Frame rate : 32.224 fps
Original frame rate : 32.225 fps (original of what?....the MOV file?)
Is this just two different ways to get the same outcome?
High bitrate, low FPS
or
Low bitrate, high FPS
???
But its clear - Avidemux offers the greatest coding control of all the progs I've tried.
Yet it is possible that you might only wish to re-code...... after editing.
So surely the ideal future for Avidemux would be to merge with a good editing package.
Decompress for editing, then re-compress for display.
As it stands, the user MUST edit his video.
So he finds an editor that can import MOV files (say).
He imports 2..... stitches them together, and then exports the new video to a usable format.
The editing package he is using will not have the encoding options of Avidemux..... but he has no other options.
Where would Avidemux come in?
I guess... if he was forced to encode at a constant bitrate of say 4000, he could re-encode with Avidemux to reduce file storage requirements by half, and reduce the stream size from 60Mb down to 20Mb.
Hmmmmmm.
This would likely mean that more viewers would be able to view the videos at HD.
Am I right about this?
Imagine if you could get that result in one shot 'with the editing included'.
So which editor did I find that works?
VSDC seems to be the clear winner.
It offers 'slider' editing of clips a la WMM, multiple file import, and multiple options for export (2 pass, bitrate etc etc.)
I tried Lightworks....... considered to be the ultimate video editor as used by major film makers.
Available now in Linux and Win formats, it is being re-marketed to the plebs.... only that it is fundamentally designed for film work, and workarounds are required for typical video.
Eg. before even importing a file, it must be re-coded to a static fps rate eg. 25fps OR 30fps.
The potential thereafter is only limited by how many hours you put into the learning cycle.
Its big failure is in output coding.
I couldn't get a single one to play in Media Player.
A typical 100Mb MOV file outputs to around 27Gb
I did get one output to 1Gb, but it wouldn't play either.
Apparently they understand the problem and intend to offer more coding options.
If you try it DO NOT think you can wing it based upon your experience.
You must read the quick start guide (which doesn't tell you that you must first recode using a prog they've written called Eyeframe converter).
Tried Ci media cloud beta by Sony 'glitch city arizona'.
Any Video Editor looks like it shares code with VSDC only it offers a quarter of the features and a watermark.
I think I've gone almost as far as I should at the moment
I now need to figure out how to host my videos
With all the display devices out there in circulation, it seems a pro org is required, to provide device dependent delivery.
Here are the MediaInfo logs for the 2 files discussed above:
Video 90.mov
Complete name : C:\Documents and Settings\Ace Administrator\My Documents\My Videos\Logitech Webcam\Edits\Video 90.mov
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : QuickTime
Codec ID : qt
File size : 80.9 MiB
Duration : 2mn 48s
Overall bit rate mode : Constant
Overall bit rate : 4 040 Kbps
Writing application : Lavf52.64.2
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Baseline@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : No
Format settings, ReFrames : 1 frame
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 2mn 47s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 3 022 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 6 000 Kbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 15.107 fps
Standard : Component
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.096
Stream size : 60.4 MiB (75%)
Language : English
Audio
ID : 2
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Little
Format settings, Sign : Signed
Codec ID : sowt
Duration : 2mn 48s
Source duration : 2mn 48s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 024 Kbps
Channel count : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 32.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Stream size : 20.5 MiB (25%)
Source stream size : 20.5 MiB (25%)
Language : English
mdhd_Duration : 168030
2passAvg2000hadamard10.avi
Complete name : C:\Documents and Settings\Ace Administrator\My Documents\2passAvg2000hadamard10.avi
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
File size : 40.1 MiB
Duration : 2mn 47s
Overall bit rate : 2 005 Kbps
Video
ID : 0
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.2
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : H264
Duration : 2mn 47s
Bit rate : 955 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 2 000 Kbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 32.224 fps
Original frame rate : 32.225 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.014
Stream size : 19.1 MiB (48%)
Writing library : x264 core 123 r2189 35cf912
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=tesa / subme=9 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=40 / rc=2pass / mbtree=1 / bitrate=2000 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Audio
ID : 1
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Little
Format settings, Sign : Signed
Codec ID : 1
Duration : 2mn 47s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 024 Kbps
Channel count : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 32.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Stream size : 20.4 MiB (51%)
Alignment : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration : 31 ms (1.01 video frame)
Markodec- Posts : 12
Join date : 2014-01-06
Location : South of France
Re: Win Movie Maker - direct editing of MOV files in XP
by Admin Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:05 pm
I don't do any video editing myself, so I don't have much more advice. Another advanced editor is Sony Vegas.
Admin- Admin
- Posts : 7384
Join date : 2011-06-17 -
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